An In-Depth Interview
with
Manos Koufakis and Kostas Organopoulos
of
Sonic Age Records
*******
The interest in LEGEND, reading things about that interest from fans and record companies approaching us to re-issue the album, and the process of making the re-issue of From the Fjords, as well as the invitation to perform at the Keep It True festival, in Germany, in April, 2020, placed me in a position to ponder many things I had lost focus on forty years ago. Some of my more recent entries on the 'Thoughts' page reflect that pondering. The world is a different place. Popular music is in a different place. Not having really followed it for four decades; my exposure, especially to the world of Heavy Metal in the 21st century, shocked me, and caused me to ask many questions. Given their place in the industry, and recognizing their passion for the genre, as well as keen insights on a number of subjects, I thought doing an interview with Manos and Kostas could offer some food for thought. I was certainly correct in that perception.
Some time passed between receiving answers and this is now a combined interview, with viewpoints from both Manos Koufakis and Kostas Organopoulos, and you may see some overlapping points of view. They run Sonic Age Records, an online record store, and are also an independent record company, mostly catering to Heavy Metal music fans of bands from the 1970's and 80's, with other genre and stock on their website. They are into reissuing vinyl LP's, and also CD releases, of both old and new bands. They are located in Athens, Greece.
The interview is somewhat of an ongoing process and may incur changes as it moves along.
What follows is a fascinating look at the world of Heavy Metal from the viewpoint of two men who listen to it and professionally market it.
*If you see any web links in the text, copy and paste or, hi-lite and Right click.*
Ray - Gentlemen, I thank you so much for taking time to do this interview. I have truly enjoyed working with you both. I have spent the bulk of my association with Sonic Age corresponding with Manos and don't know a lot about you, Kostas but, your work together on the 40th anniversary reissue of From the Fjords was exemplary and I consider you a team, to be sure. I have greatly appreciated both of you for your integrity and openness. I am coming to this interview from the viewpoint of someone not being a "Heavy Metal" musician, per se', or daily fan of the genre, whereas both of you have decades of personal and professional experience with many dozens of bands, if not hundreds of bands.
The LEGEND 40th Anniversary reissue exposed me to some matters I have found deeply interesting as well as perplexing. You may find the questions on the 'edgy' side but, I hope you can weave your way through them and answer honestly as you wish; for I truly seek to understand some issues the genre creates and abides in, especially as LEGEND has almost always been classified in it. Not only am I interested in how you both came to the musical places you are but, I hope to provoke thought and discussion on the subject in a focused and also broader perspective.
I also realize you are in business, and like all businesses catering to a customer base, you may not be into everything you offer those who are.
Living in Greece, born in 1979 and 1980, with most modern Rock associated with Britain and America, and a limited contribution by a few other European nations, how did you become exposed to it all and what caused a gravitation to Heavy Metal?
Manos - For me the transition from Greek traditional and commercial music was natural. Ever since being a kid my parents would listen to Greek music mostly so, instead of becoming a Greek music fan, the over exposure to Greek music had a negative impact on me, making me seek other styles of music. My cousin (who is 5 years older than me - 'hello Andreas!!'), in the mid-80's, started listening to various hard rock and metal bands. Being older than me, he was experiencing things before I did so, in a way I was always looking up to him and he drew some kind of influence on me, especially in the music he was listening to. So, starting with SCORPIONS, BLACK SABBATH, HELLOWEEN, MANOWAR and also the trendy hard rock bands of the time; GUNS N' ROSES, SKID ROW, POISON, etc., I started becoming obsessed with that new (to me) sound. So, I started looking for other persons who were also into heavy metal.
Please note that Greek society is and was deeply conservative with a strong Christian Orthodox tradition and influence in all aspects of life so, the metalheads in the 80's as well as people into punk, new wave, etc., were mocked and bullied (and often were police targets) by the common people. My natural inclination is to side with the weak. At least what I considered weak at the time. The turning point for me, to convince myself that I would only listen to heavy metal and nothing else, was when, in 1987, my father had enrolled me in a Tae Kwon Do class. I met two older guys that would come to the lessons everyday wearing T-shirts by, unknown to me, bands such as METAL CHURCH, DESTRUCTION, KREATOR, etc. That was much heavier and more unknown stuff for me and I had no access to it. No kid at the age of 8 years old could go to a record store and ask to buy KREATOR at the time. So I started bombing them with all sorts of questions. "How heavy are they?" "What do they sound like?" Etc., etc. So, after a few days pestering them with the same childish questions, they got angry, pinned me against a wall and told me in a very strict manner: "Watch out kid, this is not stuff for you yet. You need to stick to SCORPIONS, etc., and when the time is right you'll get to know the heavier stuff too."
As you can understand, I was instantly hooked! I was a foot soldier in an imaginary army so, if I wanted to climb up the rankings I needed to try harder and start reading everything related to hard rock and heavy metal so that I'm never caught off-guard. And, more or less, this and other small incidents fueled my passion for hard rock and heavy metal in combination with the scarcity for that particular genre, being tough to find records at the time and not having easy access to them.
Kostas - I became exposed to heavy metal by two neighbors of mine, who were listening death metal back in 1992. They were collecting vinyl and they first recommended to me bands like DIO, SLAYER, RUNNING WILD, IRON MAIDEN, OZZY, etc. The first metal song I ever listened to was SLAYER's "Skeletons of Society" and since then I got hooked by the sound, vocals and riffing. The rest is history! :)
Ray - Manos, given your love for American Oldies, as well as Progressive Rock, and Kostas, with the cultural and music background you have, in your minds, what is Heavy Metal?
Manos - Though the origin of the term is basically coined by journalists and we get to hear it first on bands like STEPPENWOLF ("Heavy metal thunder"), for me "Heavy Metal" is nothing more and nothing else than another rock expression and music form that was too heavy to be labeled rock. In the early days it was called simply "Hard Rock" as a more marketing friendly approach but, in the years that followed, Heavy Metal gained its own unique identity and sub-genres, branches, etc.
Kostas - Heavy metal is a lot of things; it's what each of us make it be. Heavy metal might be fun, might be love, might be hate; numerous things. I can only try to define it by what it means to myself and still it's not easy to define. I would say that it's a big part of my life and what I am. I don't regret that I dedicated numerous hours to heavy metal, either by watching live shows, listening to music in my room, or focusing on reissues and working on them with Manos to become a piece of CULT METAL CLASSICS or CULT ROCK CLASSICS history.
Ray - I was 14 when they hit the scene and I honestly wonder if anyone today, or even in the late 70's and 80's would have seen or classed STEPPENWOLF as a Heavy Metal band as people came to think of the genre. That said, bands were all influenced by the Blues before them, and early American Rock and Roll. It's the departure from that influence that seemed to mark Metal as something different from everything else.
Do you both consider yourselves a "traditionalist" when it comes to Heavy Metal?
Manos - Personally I never liked any other style. I tried hard to get used to those growling vocal lines of Death Metal, Black Metal, and other sub-genres but, I never got into that stuff. So in a way, I'm a traditionalist. I prefer the sound of SABBATH, PRIEST, ACCEPT, SCORPIONS etc. The older I grow, the more I like the 70's Heavy Metal (or proto-metal if you may call them) bands. Actually, I become more and more of a rock fan. Time softens people or simply makes them more open minded? Not sure what is the answer to it.
Kostas - Well, I like traditional Heavy Metal music but, I also enjoy other kinds, which spread by it, having their roots in traditional heavy metal music but, giving their own essence to what heavy metal is all about. I guess that for some people I can seem to be a "traditionalist" but, it all depends on the "eye of the beholder." If someone only listens to traditional heavy metal and nothing else at all, I guess he would find me less "traditionalist" than himself or not traditionalist at all. If another person listens to only progressive metal, he would find me extreme "traditionalist."
Ray - If someone is not a "traditionalist" what does that leave? Is there a term for the other side of the genre's coin? TNWOTHM (The New Wave Of Traditional Heavy Metal) implies the genre went in a direction some were not entirely pleased with and a movement developed to bring Heavy Metal back to its traditional roots. What are those roots?
Manos - Nowadays if you meet someone and you both say to each other that you are Heavy Metal fans, it means absolutely nothing. The other person could be completely into different things than what you're into. The New Wave of Traditional Heavy Metal mostly refers to bands that try to revive the old sound of the 80's (and partly 70's). These young bands even try to look like the 70's and 80's bands wearing similar clothing and even adopting more old school recording techniques. So, a non-traditionalist can be any fan that prefers the styles that followed such as Black Metal, Death Metal, Gothic Metal, etc., etc. These styles also evolved during the 80's and they even have new wave movements, too! So you have New Wave of Swedish Death Metal as well as hybrids such as Melodic Death Metal, Christian (!) Death Metal, Experimental Avant Garde Black Metal, and so on.
To me the roots are simply BLACK SABBATH and DEEP PURPLE. These two bands, actually defined what was to come. Sabbath had darker songs, but later on with DIO they also had more epic / up-tempo songs. D.P. were more into fantasy stuff and they can be credited for the birth of epic metal along with other 70's bands such as RAINBOW, LEGEND, IRON CLAW, WISHBONE ASH, KANSAS, URIAH HEEP, BUDGIE, SAXON, JUDAS PRIEST, IMPECCABLE, THE SCORPIONS, UFO, BLUE OYSTER CULT (I'm sure I'm missing a ton but, these are the first ones that come to mind).
Kostas - I think that the name TNWOTHM implies that it's focused on traditional heavy metal like the way it was played in the 80s by bands like, BLACK SABBATH, OZZY, DIO, IRON MAIDEN, MANOWAR, ACCEPT, JUDAS PRIEST, etc. meaning; leaving out the genres which evolved from it, like Thrash, Death or Black Metal.
Ray - That's a very interesting collection of bands. What prompted the beginning of your desire to bring about the exposure and recordings of 1980's Metal bands, and how did you team up for that and develop Sonic Age Records?
Manos - As much as hard work can get you good things in life, without pure luck nothing is possible and people often overlook the determining factor of luck in life. People always tend to side with the winners leading to the infamous survivor's bias. This is a term that I first read about in Nicholas Nassim Taleb's book, entitled "Fooled by Randomness." And it applies to music a lot. So, you regularly get to hear that "If that band deserved it, they would have been big." or "See how big AEROSMITH became? It's due to hard work that they reached huge success."
This whole belief system lacks complete scientific backing in my books. And you get to read all those flamboyant books with imposing titles such as; "5 habits of the richest people," etc., which communicates to all "underachievers" that if you follow these habits you will become the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. It's funny, because people never look at the stats (because they're non-existent or insufficient), that would inform them how many of the people that followed those 5 habits became rich.
This huge injustice and belief: that the popular bands are the good bands - the bands that worked hard for it are the ones that deserve it - is what motivated me to prove people wrong. In my books, "The Golden Bell" [by LEGEND] is just as good as "Child in Time" [I thank you for that nod] "Free to live" and "Period of Change" by WINTERHAWK, are just as good as any song RAINBOW or, SABBATH or, PURPLE ever wrote. "Seashore," by IMPECCABLE, is just as great as any song LED ZEPPELIN ever penned, and ANGEL's "The tower" and "Fortune" are just as classic as any song ever written by the so-called "big" bands.
So, to cut a long story short, Kostas and I, during our last year at high school, started publishing the magazine STEEL CONJURING (entirely written in English), featuring mostly interviews by U.S. Hard Rock and Metal bands from the 80's, as well as presentation of obscure and unknown albums from the 70's and 80's, and also reviews of newer 90's bands that played our favorite style Hard Rock / Heavy and Power Metal. So, we got to meet and talk to many of our heroes, and in 2000, my friend Ed Horgan, the drummer of the mighty VALHALLA (from Pittsburgh), sent me a tape with unreleased songs he had from his band. When I listened to them I could not accept that these musicians had written such godly compositions and no record label at the time would sign them and turn them to a huge selling artist. So, I told Ed that "YOU NEED TO RELEASE THIS STUFF!!!" and Ed told me "Why don't you do it?" But, how could I do it? I knew nothing about record plants, lawyer jargon, contracts, agreements and most importantly, if I did it, would there be any interest?
So, after careful considerations and intensive problem solving, I released a VALHALLA anthology, with the backing of my friend Chris Papadatos, that almost sold out during the pre-order phase! That was back in 2001, and we were the first Greek record label that ever reissued a Heavy Metal record by a non-Greek band. In the next two years, I re-teamed with my high school friend, Kostas. He quit his job at the bank and we decided to run together both Cult Metal Classics and Sonic Age Records, and to this day (2019), we're still doing this thing together.
Kostas - I always liked to dig in and discover more and more great bands, as a listener. But, I admit that I never had the idea of reissuing old stuff on cd/vinyl. In the school days I was helping Manos with a fanzine named "Steel Conjuring," focusing on old and new traditional heavy metal bands, so our cooperation with this fanzine kind of became the start of it all. By having this experience it was more easy some years later to think of doing the whole Sonic Age-thing together. We wanted to have a sub-label to release new stuff on CD and also to keep the Cult Metal Classics name for the reissues. Manos quit his studies to make it happen and I also quit my daily job to focus 100% on the record label. We wanted to make it as serious as it could be so, we were doing whatever we could to have suitable promotion and distribution. That was our main concern for the first 2-3 years.
Ray - I remember "Metal" being attributed to a sound incorporated into electric guitars through stomp boxes and such back in the '60's, and then "Heavy Metal" came along with its different musical personality, quite removed from John Kay's "Heavy Metal Thunder." My first exposure to Heavy Metal was in my teens and the music of BLACK SABBATH around 1970. They employed the heavy sound with Rock, Blues, and even had really beautiful acoustic pieces on their albums. Why do you believe Heavy Metal became more and more aggressive in its sound in the 80's? What influenced those changes to go from subtle to lion's share dominance of the genre?
Manos - I believe it's a sign of the times. People are gradually getting more and more desensitized towards brutal, violent sightings and experiences. Movies get more and more brutal. A crime won't even make it to the evening news unless it's something horrific and repulsive. People living crammed in the cities is a token of brutality on its own. Rivalries, dog eats dog, no time for anything anymore, people living their lives like robots. Why would Heavy Metal escape from this process? People would eventually start digging more extreme sounds, more extreme expressions of art forms, so Heavy Metal, being kind of a reflection of society, would serve that purpose. Now it's not even Heavy Metal that reflects society's (sub)cultural need for expression. It's Gansta Hip- Hop, Rap, and similar styles of music. Heavy Metal is already outdated. I remember a song by FEAR named "I love livin' in the city" which is an irony on living in the city. Nowadays, such a song would make younger kids laugh at it.
Kostas - I feel that the reasons for heavy metal becoming more aggressive are deeply caused by how our society is. Anger, hate and violence are wherever you look, always along with love and compassion. So, when heavy metal was born, it was inevitable in some way for people to take it to its most extreme edge. It's like discovering that by throwing salt in your food can make it more tasty. As soon as you give this info to people, some of them will throw in their food just a little salt, but some will throw salt, pepper, paprika and whatever else according to their taste, to make it more "edgy". Luck is also a big evolutionary force, like with every other aspect of life.
Ray - And yet, no other genre seemed to drift towards the societal influence of the masses as a whole in that desensitization. Rock and Roll stayed R&R. Fusion, like traditional Jazz faded, and Classical/Progressive Rock just lost it's stadium place for the most part. Country, Top 40, most everything either drifted out of prominence and just barely held a fan base, or got more popular, like Country which basically added Rock to its sound. The 90's saw things get, shall we say, more dark and somewhat morbid with Grunge, or mono-tonal with Rave, and yet, a lot of Pop music in the 80's and 90's seemed to go retro, back to the 60's and focus on simple redundancy. A discussion of Hip-Hop and Rap is like another world, really. Today it is the biggest collection of genres on the planet, surpassing Rock. Metal, though, as a genre, seemed to go into avenues meant to cause a more shocking departure from daily life.
Manos - I remember the prophetic lines spoken in the masterful Ralph Nelson's, '68 film "Charly." A perceived as low I.Q. dumb person gains super intelligence through a scientific process, and is able to see things more clearly. So, at the peak of his intellectual capacity, a group of scientists ask him questions and they get answers that most likely they did not expect or, want to hear:
Convention speaker #5: Modern science.
Charly Gordon: Rampant technology, conscience by computer.
Convention speaker #1: Modern art.
Charly Gordon: Dispassionate draftsmen.
Convention speaker #4: Foreign policy.
Charly Gordon: Brave new weapons.
Convention speaker #1: Today's youth.
Charly Gordon: Joyless, guideless.
Convention speaker #6: Today's religion.
Charly Gordon: Preachment by popularity polls.
Convention speaker #3: Standard of living.
Charly Gordon: A TV in every room.
Convention speaker #4: Education.
Charly Gordon: [agitated] A TV in every room.
Convention speaker #1: The world's future, Mr. Gordon.
Charly Gordon: Brave new hates, brave new bombs, brave new wars.
Convention speaker #7: The coming generation.
Charly Gordon: Test-tube conception, laboratory birth, TV education, brave new dreams, brave new hates, brave new wars; a beautifully purposeless process of society suicide.
Ray - Cliff Robertson. I remember that movie, though the prophetic accuracy escaped me until now. I wonder if the modern adaptation, Flowers for Algernon, has that same prophetic foresight? So, everything has been effected, not just music.
Given you both have such a large exposure to and collection of Heavy Metal and many other genres, how do you look at the growing sub-divisions of the genre? Some believe Symphonic Metal is not really Metal; the same said for other sub-genres. Are the sub-genres truly expressive of actual, definitive and necessary musical differences?
Manos - The more you focus on a certain music style, the more differences you trace. It has to do, a lot, with someone's musical upbringing and background, and of course, general cultural environment. My parents will deem every Heavy Metal or Hard Rock song as noise regardless if it's SABBATH or Extreme Death Metal. As long as there are electric guitars and distortion they will say it's noise. For those of us that work in the music industry, it's a natural progression. Genres will always begin as something solid, easily recognizable, and then they will gradually evolve to other things. Nowadays, Symphonic Metal is also something vague. It could mean Traditional Heavy Metal backed by an orchestra or even Death Metal with growling vocals, accompanied by classical instruments. Therefore, there was an even further segregation. There is Symphonic Power Metal, Symphonic Death Metal, and so on.
Sometimes sub-genres have distinguishable audio differences (at least for those into Heavy Metal) A Jazz fan will most likely find fewer differences. While other times, certain sub-genres express lyrical themes. For example: White Metal usually reflects a band that deals with themes about the Christian faith, while Black Metal features bands with darker topics, and often anti-Christian, anti-God or, even anti-human lyrics. No wonder why some extreme forms of music come from band members with fascist, even Nazi friendly beliefs. I'm not implying that people who listen to classical music are children of God but, I'm saying that we do find a big number of extreme, right wing artists that openly declare their anti-humanism through their lyrics.
Kostas - I don't mind people/press/labels giving names to music styles, as long as it helps people define and describe what they listen to. Of course, this may have some nasty side effects, like confusion, and misleading fans to buy stuff that they won't actually like, or people arguing and having differences of aspects about what "progressive" means or "jazzy" or whatever. Sub-genres are not always accurate, if I understand your question correctly. It depends on who gives the sub-genre to one certain band. For example, a manager might want, for promotional reasons, to add a sub-genre to one of the bands he promotes, because that sub-genre in that certain time is considered "cool" by the majority of fans, or because he believes that with this way the band would sell more. As long as music is a thing which is used for trade and money, this is inevitable. Musicians want to sell, managers and labels, too. So the listeners need to be focused and not trust 100% the reviews / promo headlines.
Ray - I happened upon a discussion forum addressing the Legend reissue and saw quite a few negative comments about some matters surrounding me and my Christian faith. I had to read via a "translator" app and some things may have been lost in translation. Can you comment on the divide that exists for the Metal community between itself and traditional religion, and yet, religious Heavy Metal bands exist. How or why does the angst exist for some, and yet professed religious musicians get into Heavy Metal? What is the bridge that some walk across that joins the two lands? I ask because I have read quite a bit about the "family" aspect of "Metalheads;" that it has a camaraderie unlike any other genre fan base; that all are welcome.
Manos - While myself, in the past, was really condemning totally evil acts that were committed in the name of God and Jesus Christ by people who were definitely not true Christians but, were self-proclaimed preachers of the faith, I tend to see that Christian faith is often targeted by some Metal artists but, mostly of those who embrace the Black Metal sound; and this is because it's an easy target the last years. On the other hand, the same bands will never speak a word about certain other religions, because deep inside they fear that the consequences might be more than just lawsuits or negative comments. There's a bit of hypocrisy around the whole thing, and even bands like VENOM that were sporting inverted crosses and Satan worshiping lyrics clearly admitted at later stages of their career that they didn't believe any of it. So marketing wise, it's easy to be anti-Christian nowadays, especially in the western world. In the eyes of the youth you look rebellious, which could possibly help you sell more copies.
But, in general, in Heavy Metal you will find all kinds of people just like in real society. So, you will find Christians, Satan worshipers, Fascists, Communists, Liberals, Agnostics, etc., etc. The whole angst against Christian faith that comes from a certain part of Metalheads derives from other reasons than the root of Christian faith itself. Some Metal fans loath Christian faith for their own reasons, while some others simply are anti-establishment believers, and since the Christian faith is dominant in European and some American countries, their anti-Christianity is basically reflected as part as their anti-conservatism belief system.
Kostas - I think that people are complex creatures, carrying multiple identities most of the times. One guy can be a metalhead, nationalist, football fan, and religious. One other guy might be a metalhead but, agnostic, not a fan of any football teams, and also listening to some other genres of music, etc.: too many different mixes of preferences all in one person. Of course, heavy metal music from its beginning faced various difficulties on conservative societies, because people didn't like the attitude and style of fans/musicians. I think that today it's not very common but, back in the 80s, especially to countries like Greece, metalheads were treated like monster-looking humans or weird and out of society's context. So as you may understand, that forced metalheads to be united in order to overcome this alienation. When you were meeting in the streets or in a rock club, a stranger with a metal t-shirt; you knew immediately that this guy's life has a lot of commonalities with yours! :)
I think that the divide didn't only exist for religion but, for everything which was considered "normal" for western societies back in the 70s/80s. Heavy metal was about alternative ways of thinking; free from any social boundaries which used to oppress mostly young people (church, state, police, teachers, etc). Because it was a music from young people, to young people, mostly! At the same time, of course, it was also inevitable some artists would choose different lyric topics and band images than the usual: "against society's normality," and write about religion and Jesus, etc. There are even some Black Metal Christian bands. Black metal in music style but, religious in lyrics.
Ray - Owing to unfortunate hypocrisy that exists in all religions because of less than committed adherents to each, why does some Heavy Metal choose to demean Christianity and its themes, including uplifting the side of evil - Lucifer, Satan, the devil, etc. - more than other religious faiths, which also have characters of good, as well as evil? Why pick Christianity and not Islam or Buddhism or other religions? Is it just a commentary on hypocrisy or does it go deeper than that? Is it simply that Christianity is the main historic influence in the West, and Metal is a Western music form that somehow developed a collision? Rock music, in general, had a rebellious attitude towards traditional values yet, a lot of Metal seems to focus on rejection of Christian values. Would you see that as a correct observation? Why does that focus exist?
Manos - It's due to all these things that you're correctly mentioning. I strongly believe that unlike the 80's, where a conservative Christian organization like PMRC could really do harm to a rock artist, nowadays there is moderate freedom of speech and, in most civilized countries you are free to write and sing almost anything. But, now we're also getting to the fear factor. Who will openly sing against women oppression in some Muslim empowered cultures? Who will condemn certain practices or even dare to make fun of the God of certain religions? We have all seen that in many cases that back-fired and people were murdered simply because they wrote something against a certain religion. Of course, really messed up brains exist in all religions but, I don't understand why any living person of this world would be against preachings that dictate a way of life based on love and not hate, based on sharing things, based on forgiving and sometimes turning the other cheek. It's also quite often that people condemning Christian values bring up parts from the Old Testament. Like I said, nowadays being anti-christian is somehow trendy, because it's safe to do so: meaning that it rarely has any consequences. In general though, mass killings have been committed in the name of all religions but, it would be hypocritical not to say that certain religions preach hate against non believers, while others are more peaceful.
I want to make a special reference to Buddhism, cause it's the religion that I've never seen any special negative reference against and I believe this is because people have somehow connected Buddhism to spirituality, calmness, inner peace, etc. Actually, aside from the people who were born in countries where Buddhism is the dominant religion, I doubt that most people in Europe and America are even aware of the values of that religion. They simply think it's cool.
Kostas - Yes, I believe that they focus on Christianity because they were simply raised with it in their families and societies. So they are familiar with it. Not many of the western young people have read about Buddha or about Islam. I see the "anti-religious" attitude as a part of the general "anti-normality" attitude. I don't see it as a separate "music behavior."
Ray - It is interesting you bring up freedom of speech because, here in America, our Constitutional First Amendment protecting freedom of speech is under attack by factions who believe if anything offends them it should not be allowed.
Do you believe "evil" exists in the Metal community as a literal path to walk in or, is it all hyperbolic; a Halloween-type show? Does evil exist as something to be avoided in the Metal culture/community? What do you believe is the draw for the overt and often grotesque depictions in artwork associated with the genre? Where does the fascination with death come from? Why is shock value important to the genre?
Manos - Evil in the true sense of the word, meaning people willing to harm someone as part of their belief system, is something rare in metal circles. 90% is only marketing, show and shock tactics to impress one another. There is no real substance behind it. The heavy loud sound, distorted guitars, growling vocals, sort of "need" to be accompanied by extreme artwork. I find it totally despicable that certain bands release cover artworks and write lyrics that (in)directly promote the rape culture, the inferiority of women, the glorification of serial killers and in general, violence for the sake of violence. When a young guy reads lyrics that will go like; "Kill'em, destroy'em," etc., etc., they will somehow feel as gaining power through the lyrics while in their everyday life may be shy, introverted people. I was never impressed by such antics.
You get to see Jack Clayton's "The Innocents." Not a single drop of blood and he succeeds in conveying a scary atmosphere merely though his talent as a director, as an artist. You want to be an atheist? OK, fine for me but, just don't base your entire existence on atheism. Really important directors like Woody Allen and the Spanish genius Luis Bunuel never felt the need to turn their atheism to preaching. All their anti-religious references were subtle, thought provoking, and were always pointing against religious hypocrisy rather than the value system itself; which is quite often open to interpretation and each individual's entitlement.
Kostas - Well, I believe that it depends on the person/band. Some might take it just for fun or want to be provocative, and use evil as a lyrical/image concept but, some others might take it seriously and want to express an evil or anti-human or violent attitude. It's not easy to pick who is doing what, unless there are some actions which prove the one or the other.
Ray - Do you believe Metal bands cater to the desires of their audience or does the audience just respond to the viewpoints of the bands?
Manos - An infamous Greek sportscaster (George Georgiou) once said that newspapers are sold-out to their readers. So, in that way, metal bands will try to stick to certain cliches without trying to experiment further to avoid risking to displease their fan base. Sometimes this works, some other times it doesn't. So, both scenarios usually play out to a great extent.
A music band, just like the actor who will meet success playing the Hunchback of Notre Dame, is often typecast. MANOWAR are always expected to sing about Valhalla, warriors, and the brotherhood of Heavy Metal; RUNNING WILD, about pirate tales and so on. An IRON MAIDEN cover artwork that will not feature Eddie (the band mascot) will definitely be faced with severe anger by most fans of the band. Given that, the Metal fans (just like most music fans) often define a band's course, after initially, they themselves, adopted the band's original values and image. People like to follow routines, and habits are tough to break. This is why people are less open to change even if their own lives scream "Change!"
Kostas - It's a difficult question to reply to because, I don't think that someone could have a clear answer. Ideas are transferred in and out from one part to another so, I find it impossible to tell who did the first move. One similar question that sometimes comes to my mind is this: Are t.v. channels feeding the "trashy" needs of the audience or, would they offer us "trashy" stuff no matter what? Who made the needs of the audience "trashy" in the first place? It's like a giant circle moving with both ways. Musicians are also members of society and grasp the viewpoints they have from t.v., books, internet, music, etc. so, they want to talk about them and they do so through their music. Some other musicians might just consider lyrics unimportant; they just want to make extreme music so, they write typical "steel, chains, leather, Satan, violence, anger," etc. lyrics.
Ray - Your business addresses traditional Heavy Metal, looking back decades. What do you both see as the future of Heavy Metal? Where can it go? Where would you like to see it go? Considering where the greatest popularity is for music today, where do you see music, in general, going?
Manos - There are a few modern bands that have stuck to the traditional sound and keep gaining commercial success but, in general, Traditional Heavy Metal, as it was played in the late 70's and early 80's, is becoming more and more unpopular and a thing of the past. In the live shows that I attend where bands from the 80's are playing, I see mostly people in their 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Younger kids seem to be preferring other styles of Metal and also other styles of music. What was rock in the 60's, punk in the 70's, and "Metal in the 80's in now Hip-Hop. Pop was always dominant but, Hip-Hop artists seem to be filling the rebellious anxieties of a school kid or younger person in general.
The way I see things, in the future the physical format (vinyl, CD. etc.) will be non-existent or obsolete. People will mostly be listening to music online and in general, possessing things will be a practice of the old days. CD sales have completely died, vinyl has gained momentum again but, it will also deflate sooner or later.
As a music collector, I'd love to see vinyl existing in the years to come, even though I understand that it's impractical in some cases. I love to be able to admire the front cover artwork in its full shining glory and place the vinyl on my turntable, listening to music as part of a private ritual, soul healing process. As a music fan, I'm open to experimentation. I listen to all kinds of music but, as I said when it comes to Metal, my wish is to see more bands playing like in the 70's and 80's which where my favorite decades for Heavy Metal music. At the same time, I'm terrible at predicting things, so I'm really curious as to where all this will lead to....
Kostas - I really can't predict the future of heavy metal or music in general because, even in the present, my views on heavy metal or music in general are extremely limited. Out there you may find millions of projects/bands playing their stuff and I will only listen in my limited time as a human being, only to a very small percentage of their productions. I have no expectations of heavy metal. It has worked nice before I was born and I am sure it will exist for many years after I die! So the truth is that it works beyond my own likes and expectations. :) I am very pleased with the way heavy metal worked during my life so far: it allowed me to enjoy listening to it very much. I hope numerous people will enjoy it for many, many years!
Ray - I love and appreciate both you guys, and I thank you both, very much, for your time and energy, and hope we can continue to work together in the future.
Manos - I really appreciate your taking the time to putting together this interview. I'm really happy to be your friend and sharing views with you. Also a huge thanks for the opportunity to openly speak about certain things that we are rarely asked about.
Kostas - Thanks a lot for this interview. I haven't done this before! It was a pleasure and honor for me.
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Some time passed between receiving answers and this is now a combined interview, with viewpoints from both Manos Koufakis and Kostas Organopoulos, and you may see some overlapping points of view. They run Sonic Age Records, an online record store, and are also an independent record company, mostly catering to Heavy Metal music fans of bands from the 1970's and 80's, with other genre and stock on their website. They are into reissuing vinyl LP's, and also CD releases, of both old and new bands. They are located in Athens, Greece.
The interview is somewhat of an ongoing process and may incur changes as it moves along.
What follows is a fascinating look at the world of Heavy Metal from the viewpoint of two men who listen to it and professionally market it.
*If you see any web links in the text, copy and paste or, hi-lite and Right click.*
Ray - Gentlemen, I thank you so much for taking time to do this interview. I have truly enjoyed working with you both. I have spent the bulk of my association with Sonic Age corresponding with Manos and don't know a lot about you, Kostas but, your work together on the 40th anniversary reissue of From the Fjords was exemplary and I consider you a team, to be sure. I have greatly appreciated both of you for your integrity and openness. I am coming to this interview from the viewpoint of someone not being a "Heavy Metal" musician, per se', or daily fan of the genre, whereas both of you have decades of personal and professional experience with many dozens of bands, if not hundreds of bands.
The LEGEND 40th Anniversary reissue exposed me to some matters I have found deeply interesting as well as perplexing. You may find the questions on the 'edgy' side but, I hope you can weave your way through them and answer honestly as you wish; for I truly seek to understand some issues the genre creates and abides in, especially as LEGEND has almost always been classified in it. Not only am I interested in how you both came to the musical places you are but, I hope to provoke thought and discussion on the subject in a focused and also broader perspective.
I also realize you are in business, and like all businesses catering to a customer base, you may not be into everything you offer those who are.
Living in Greece, born in 1979 and 1980, with most modern Rock associated with Britain and America, and a limited contribution by a few other European nations, how did you become exposed to it all and what caused a gravitation to Heavy Metal?
Manos - For me the transition from Greek traditional and commercial music was natural. Ever since being a kid my parents would listen to Greek music mostly so, instead of becoming a Greek music fan, the over exposure to Greek music had a negative impact on me, making me seek other styles of music. My cousin (who is 5 years older than me - 'hello Andreas!!'), in the mid-80's, started listening to various hard rock and metal bands. Being older than me, he was experiencing things before I did so, in a way I was always looking up to him and he drew some kind of influence on me, especially in the music he was listening to. So, starting with SCORPIONS, BLACK SABBATH, HELLOWEEN, MANOWAR and also the trendy hard rock bands of the time; GUNS N' ROSES, SKID ROW, POISON, etc., I started becoming obsessed with that new (to me) sound. So, I started looking for other persons who were also into heavy metal.
Please note that Greek society is and was deeply conservative with a strong Christian Orthodox tradition and influence in all aspects of life so, the metalheads in the 80's as well as people into punk, new wave, etc., were mocked and bullied (and often were police targets) by the common people. My natural inclination is to side with the weak. At least what I considered weak at the time. The turning point for me, to convince myself that I would only listen to heavy metal and nothing else, was when, in 1987, my father had enrolled me in a Tae Kwon Do class. I met two older guys that would come to the lessons everyday wearing T-shirts by, unknown to me, bands such as METAL CHURCH, DESTRUCTION, KREATOR, etc. That was much heavier and more unknown stuff for me and I had no access to it. No kid at the age of 8 years old could go to a record store and ask to buy KREATOR at the time. So I started bombing them with all sorts of questions. "How heavy are they?" "What do they sound like?" Etc., etc. So, after a few days pestering them with the same childish questions, they got angry, pinned me against a wall and told me in a very strict manner: "Watch out kid, this is not stuff for you yet. You need to stick to SCORPIONS, etc., and when the time is right you'll get to know the heavier stuff too."
As you can understand, I was instantly hooked! I was a foot soldier in an imaginary army so, if I wanted to climb up the rankings I needed to try harder and start reading everything related to hard rock and heavy metal so that I'm never caught off-guard. And, more or less, this and other small incidents fueled my passion for hard rock and heavy metal in combination with the scarcity for that particular genre, being tough to find records at the time and not having easy access to them.
Kostas - I became exposed to heavy metal by two neighbors of mine, who were listening death metal back in 1992. They were collecting vinyl and they first recommended to me bands like DIO, SLAYER, RUNNING WILD, IRON MAIDEN, OZZY, etc. The first metal song I ever listened to was SLAYER's "Skeletons of Society" and since then I got hooked by the sound, vocals and riffing. The rest is history! :)
Ray - Manos, given your love for American Oldies, as well as Progressive Rock, and Kostas, with the cultural and music background you have, in your minds, what is Heavy Metal?
Manos - Though the origin of the term is basically coined by journalists and we get to hear it first on bands like STEPPENWOLF ("Heavy metal thunder"), for me "Heavy Metal" is nothing more and nothing else than another rock expression and music form that was too heavy to be labeled rock. In the early days it was called simply "Hard Rock" as a more marketing friendly approach but, in the years that followed, Heavy Metal gained its own unique identity and sub-genres, branches, etc.
Kostas - Heavy metal is a lot of things; it's what each of us make it be. Heavy metal might be fun, might be love, might be hate; numerous things. I can only try to define it by what it means to myself and still it's not easy to define. I would say that it's a big part of my life and what I am. I don't regret that I dedicated numerous hours to heavy metal, either by watching live shows, listening to music in my room, or focusing on reissues and working on them with Manos to become a piece of CULT METAL CLASSICS or CULT ROCK CLASSICS history.
Ray - I was 14 when they hit the scene and I honestly wonder if anyone today, or even in the late 70's and 80's would have seen or classed STEPPENWOLF as a Heavy Metal band as people came to think of the genre. That said, bands were all influenced by the Blues before them, and early American Rock and Roll. It's the departure from that influence that seemed to mark Metal as something different from everything else.
Do you both consider yourselves a "traditionalist" when it comes to Heavy Metal?
Manos - Personally I never liked any other style. I tried hard to get used to those growling vocal lines of Death Metal, Black Metal, and other sub-genres but, I never got into that stuff. So in a way, I'm a traditionalist. I prefer the sound of SABBATH, PRIEST, ACCEPT, SCORPIONS etc. The older I grow, the more I like the 70's Heavy Metal (or proto-metal if you may call them) bands. Actually, I become more and more of a rock fan. Time softens people or simply makes them more open minded? Not sure what is the answer to it.
Kostas - Well, I like traditional Heavy Metal music but, I also enjoy other kinds, which spread by it, having their roots in traditional heavy metal music but, giving their own essence to what heavy metal is all about. I guess that for some people I can seem to be a "traditionalist" but, it all depends on the "eye of the beholder." If someone only listens to traditional heavy metal and nothing else at all, I guess he would find me less "traditionalist" than himself or not traditionalist at all. If another person listens to only progressive metal, he would find me extreme "traditionalist."
Ray - If someone is not a "traditionalist" what does that leave? Is there a term for the other side of the genre's coin? TNWOTHM (The New Wave Of Traditional Heavy Metal) implies the genre went in a direction some were not entirely pleased with and a movement developed to bring Heavy Metal back to its traditional roots. What are those roots?
Manos - Nowadays if you meet someone and you both say to each other that you are Heavy Metal fans, it means absolutely nothing. The other person could be completely into different things than what you're into. The New Wave of Traditional Heavy Metal mostly refers to bands that try to revive the old sound of the 80's (and partly 70's). These young bands even try to look like the 70's and 80's bands wearing similar clothing and even adopting more old school recording techniques. So, a non-traditionalist can be any fan that prefers the styles that followed such as Black Metal, Death Metal, Gothic Metal, etc., etc. These styles also evolved during the 80's and they even have new wave movements, too! So you have New Wave of Swedish Death Metal as well as hybrids such as Melodic Death Metal, Christian (!) Death Metal, Experimental Avant Garde Black Metal, and so on.
To me the roots are simply BLACK SABBATH and DEEP PURPLE. These two bands, actually defined what was to come. Sabbath had darker songs, but later on with DIO they also had more epic / up-tempo songs. D.P. were more into fantasy stuff and they can be credited for the birth of epic metal along with other 70's bands such as RAINBOW, LEGEND, IRON CLAW, WISHBONE ASH, KANSAS, URIAH HEEP, BUDGIE, SAXON, JUDAS PRIEST, IMPECCABLE, THE SCORPIONS, UFO, BLUE OYSTER CULT (I'm sure I'm missing a ton but, these are the first ones that come to mind).
Kostas - I think that the name TNWOTHM implies that it's focused on traditional heavy metal like the way it was played in the 80s by bands like, BLACK SABBATH, OZZY, DIO, IRON MAIDEN, MANOWAR, ACCEPT, JUDAS PRIEST, etc. meaning; leaving out the genres which evolved from it, like Thrash, Death or Black Metal.
Ray - That's a very interesting collection of bands. What prompted the beginning of your desire to bring about the exposure and recordings of 1980's Metal bands, and how did you team up for that and develop Sonic Age Records?
Manos - As much as hard work can get you good things in life, without pure luck nothing is possible and people often overlook the determining factor of luck in life. People always tend to side with the winners leading to the infamous survivor's bias. This is a term that I first read about in Nicholas Nassim Taleb's book, entitled "Fooled by Randomness." And it applies to music a lot. So, you regularly get to hear that "If that band deserved it, they would have been big." or "See how big AEROSMITH became? It's due to hard work that they reached huge success."
This whole belief system lacks complete scientific backing in my books. And you get to read all those flamboyant books with imposing titles such as; "5 habits of the richest people," etc., which communicates to all "underachievers" that if you follow these habits you will become the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. It's funny, because people never look at the stats (because they're non-existent or insufficient), that would inform them how many of the people that followed those 5 habits became rich.
This huge injustice and belief: that the popular bands are the good bands - the bands that worked hard for it are the ones that deserve it - is what motivated me to prove people wrong. In my books, "The Golden Bell" [by LEGEND] is just as good as "Child in Time" [I thank you for that nod] "Free to live" and "Period of Change" by WINTERHAWK, are just as good as any song RAINBOW or, SABBATH or, PURPLE ever wrote. "Seashore," by IMPECCABLE, is just as great as any song LED ZEPPELIN ever penned, and ANGEL's "The tower" and "Fortune" are just as classic as any song ever written by the so-called "big" bands.
So, to cut a long story short, Kostas and I, during our last year at high school, started publishing the magazine STEEL CONJURING (entirely written in English), featuring mostly interviews by U.S. Hard Rock and Metal bands from the 80's, as well as presentation of obscure and unknown albums from the 70's and 80's, and also reviews of newer 90's bands that played our favorite style Hard Rock / Heavy and Power Metal. So, we got to meet and talk to many of our heroes, and in 2000, my friend Ed Horgan, the drummer of the mighty VALHALLA (from Pittsburgh), sent me a tape with unreleased songs he had from his band. When I listened to them I could not accept that these musicians had written such godly compositions and no record label at the time would sign them and turn them to a huge selling artist. So, I told Ed that "YOU NEED TO RELEASE THIS STUFF!!!" and Ed told me "Why don't you do it?" But, how could I do it? I knew nothing about record plants, lawyer jargon, contracts, agreements and most importantly, if I did it, would there be any interest?
So, after careful considerations and intensive problem solving, I released a VALHALLA anthology, with the backing of my friend Chris Papadatos, that almost sold out during the pre-order phase! That was back in 2001, and we were the first Greek record label that ever reissued a Heavy Metal record by a non-Greek band. In the next two years, I re-teamed with my high school friend, Kostas. He quit his job at the bank and we decided to run together both Cult Metal Classics and Sonic Age Records, and to this day (2019), we're still doing this thing together.
Kostas - I always liked to dig in and discover more and more great bands, as a listener. But, I admit that I never had the idea of reissuing old stuff on cd/vinyl. In the school days I was helping Manos with a fanzine named "Steel Conjuring," focusing on old and new traditional heavy metal bands, so our cooperation with this fanzine kind of became the start of it all. By having this experience it was more easy some years later to think of doing the whole Sonic Age-thing together. We wanted to have a sub-label to release new stuff on CD and also to keep the Cult Metal Classics name for the reissues. Manos quit his studies to make it happen and I also quit my daily job to focus 100% on the record label. We wanted to make it as serious as it could be so, we were doing whatever we could to have suitable promotion and distribution. That was our main concern for the first 2-3 years.
Ray - I remember "Metal" being attributed to a sound incorporated into electric guitars through stomp boxes and such back in the '60's, and then "Heavy Metal" came along with its different musical personality, quite removed from John Kay's "Heavy Metal Thunder." My first exposure to Heavy Metal was in my teens and the music of BLACK SABBATH around 1970. They employed the heavy sound with Rock, Blues, and even had really beautiful acoustic pieces on their albums. Why do you believe Heavy Metal became more and more aggressive in its sound in the 80's? What influenced those changes to go from subtle to lion's share dominance of the genre?
Manos - I believe it's a sign of the times. People are gradually getting more and more desensitized towards brutal, violent sightings and experiences. Movies get more and more brutal. A crime won't even make it to the evening news unless it's something horrific and repulsive. People living crammed in the cities is a token of brutality on its own. Rivalries, dog eats dog, no time for anything anymore, people living their lives like robots. Why would Heavy Metal escape from this process? People would eventually start digging more extreme sounds, more extreme expressions of art forms, so Heavy Metal, being kind of a reflection of society, would serve that purpose. Now it's not even Heavy Metal that reflects society's (sub)cultural need for expression. It's Gansta Hip- Hop, Rap, and similar styles of music. Heavy Metal is already outdated. I remember a song by FEAR named "I love livin' in the city" which is an irony on living in the city. Nowadays, such a song would make younger kids laugh at it.
Kostas - I feel that the reasons for heavy metal becoming more aggressive are deeply caused by how our society is. Anger, hate and violence are wherever you look, always along with love and compassion. So, when heavy metal was born, it was inevitable in some way for people to take it to its most extreme edge. It's like discovering that by throwing salt in your food can make it more tasty. As soon as you give this info to people, some of them will throw in their food just a little salt, but some will throw salt, pepper, paprika and whatever else according to their taste, to make it more "edgy". Luck is also a big evolutionary force, like with every other aspect of life.
Ray - And yet, no other genre seemed to drift towards the societal influence of the masses as a whole in that desensitization. Rock and Roll stayed R&R. Fusion, like traditional Jazz faded, and Classical/Progressive Rock just lost it's stadium place for the most part. Country, Top 40, most everything either drifted out of prominence and just barely held a fan base, or got more popular, like Country which basically added Rock to its sound. The 90's saw things get, shall we say, more dark and somewhat morbid with Grunge, or mono-tonal with Rave, and yet, a lot of Pop music in the 80's and 90's seemed to go retro, back to the 60's and focus on simple redundancy. A discussion of Hip-Hop and Rap is like another world, really. Today it is the biggest collection of genres on the planet, surpassing Rock. Metal, though, as a genre, seemed to go into avenues meant to cause a more shocking departure from daily life.
Manos - I remember the prophetic lines spoken in the masterful Ralph Nelson's, '68 film "Charly." A perceived as low I.Q. dumb person gains super intelligence through a scientific process, and is able to see things more clearly. So, at the peak of his intellectual capacity, a group of scientists ask him questions and they get answers that most likely they did not expect or, want to hear:
Convention speaker #5: Modern science.
Charly Gordon: Rampant technology, conscience by computer.
Convention speaker #1: Modern art.
Charly Gordon: Dispassionate draftsmen.
Convention speaker #4: Foreign policy.
Charly Gordon: Brave new weapons.
Convention speaker #1: Today's youth.
Charly Gordon: Joyless, guideless.
Convention speaker #6: Today's religion.
Charly Gordon: Preachment by popularity polls.
Convention speaker #3: Standard of living.
Charly Gordon: A TV in every room.
Convention speaker #4: Education.
Charly Gordon: [agitated] A TV in every room.
Convention speaker #1: The world's future, Mr. Gordon.
Charly Gordon: Brave new hates, brave new bombs, brave new wars.
Convention speaker #7: The coming generation.
Charly Gordon: Test-tube conception, laboratory birth, TV education, brave new dreams, brave new hates, brave new wars; a beautifully purposeless process of society suicide.
Ray - Cliff Robertson. I remember that movie, though the prophetic accuracy escaped me until now. I wonder if the modern adaptation, Flowers for Algernon, has that same prophetic foresight? So, everything has been effected, not just music.
Given you both have such a large exposure to and collection of Heavy Metal and many other genres, how do you look at the growing sub-divisions of the genre? Some believe Symphonic Metal is not really Metal; the same said for other sub-genres. Are the sub-genres truly expressive of actual, definitive and necessary musical differences?
Manos - The more you focus on a certain music style, the more differences you trace. It has to do, a lot, with someone's musical upbringing and background, and of course, general cultural environment. My parents will deem every Heavy Metal or Hard Rock song as noise regardless if it's SABBATH or Extreme Death Metal. As long as there are electric guitars and distortion they will say it's noise. For those of us that work in the music industry, it's a natural progression. Genres will always begin as something solid, easily recognizable, and then they will gradually evolve to other things. Nowadays, Symphonic Metal is also something vague. It could mean Traditional Heavy Metal backed by an orchestra or even Death Metal with growling vocals, accompanied by classical instruments. Therefore, there was an even further segregation. There is Symphonic Power Metal, Symphonic Death Metal, and so on.
Sometimes sub-genres have distinguishable audio differences (at least for those into Heavy Metal) A Jazz fan will most likely find fewer differences. While other times, certain sub-genres express lyrical themes. For example: White Metal usually reflects a band that deals with themes about the Christian faith, while Black Metal features bands with darker topics, and often anti-Christian, anti-God or, even anti-human lyrics. No wonder why some extreme forms of music come from band members with fascist, even Nazi friendly beliefs. I'm not implying that people who listen to classical music are children of God but, I'm saying that we do find a big number of extreme, right wing artists that openly declare their anti-humanism through their lyrics.
Kostas - I don't mind people/press/labels giving names to music styles, as long as it helps people define and describe what they listen to. Of course, this may have some nasty side effects, like confusion, and misleading fans to buy stuff that they won't actually like, or people arguing and having differences of aspects about what "progressive" means or "jazzy" or whatever. Sub-genres are not always accurate, if I understand your question correctly. It depends on who gives the sub-genre to one certain band. For example, a manager might want, for promotional reasons, to add a sub-genre to one of the bands he promotes, because that sub-genre in that certain time is considered "cool" by the majority of fans, or because he believes that with this way the band would sell more. As long as music is a thing which is used for trade and money, this is inevitable. Musicians want to sell, managers and labels, too. So the listeners need to be focused and not trust 100% the reviews / promo headlines.
Ray - I happened upon a discussion forum addressing the Legend reissue and saw quite a few negative comments about some matters surrounding me and my Christian faith. I had to read via a "translator" app and some things may have been lost in translation. Can you comment on the divide that exists for the Metal community between itself and traditional religion, and yet, religious Heavy Metal bands exist. How or why does the angst exist for some, and yet professed religious musicians get into Heavy Metal? What is the bridge that some walk across that joins the two lands? I ask because I have read quite a bit about the "family" aspect of "Metalheads;" that it has a camaraderie unlike any other genre fan base; that all are welcome.
Manos - While myself, in the past, was really condemning totally evil acts that were committed in the name of God and Jesus Christ by people who were definitely not true Christians but, were self-proclaimed preachers of the faith, I tend to see that Christian faith is often targeted by some Metal artists but, mostly of those who embrace the Black Metal sound; and this is because it's an easy target the last years. On the other hand, the same bands will never speak a word about certain other religions, because deep inside they fear that the consequences might be more than just lawsuits or negative comments. There's a bit of hypocrisy around the whole thing, and even bands like VENOM that were sporting inverted crosses and Satan worshiping lyrics clearly admitted at later stages of their career that they didn't believe any of it. So marketing wise, it's easy to be anti-Christian nowadays, especially in the western world. In the eyes of the youth you look rebellious, which could possibly help you sell more copies.
But, in general, in Heavy Metal you will find all kinds of people just like in real society. So, you will find Christians, Satan worshipers, Fascists, Communists, Liberals, Agnostics, etc., etc. The whole angst against Christian faith that comes from a certain part of Metalheads derives from other reasons than the root of Christian faith itself. Some Metal fans loath Christian faith for their own reasons, while some others simply are anti-establishment believers, and since the Christian faith is dominant in European and some American countries, their anti-Christianity is basically reflected as part as their anti-conservatism belief system.
Kostas - I think that people are complex creatures, carrying multiple identities most of the times. One guy can be a metalhead, nationalist, football fan, and religious. One other guy might be a metalhead but, agnostic, not a fan of any football teams, and also listening to some other genres of music, etc.: too many different mixes of preferences all in one person. Of course, heavy metal music from its beginning faced various difficulties on conservative societies, because people didn't like the attitude and style of fans/musicians. I think that today it's not very common but, back in the 80s, especially to countries like Greece, metalheads were treated like monster-looking humans or weird and out of society's context. So as you may understand, that forced metalheads to be united in order to overcome this alienation. When you were meeting in the streets or in a rock club, a stranger with a metal t-shirt; you knew immediately that this guy's life has a lot of commonalities with yours! :)
I think that the divide didn't only exist for religion but, for everything which was considered "normal" for western societies back in the 70s/80s. Heavy metal was about alternative ways of thinking; free from any social boundaries which used to oppress mostly young people (church, state, police, teachers, etc). Because it was a music from young people, to young people, mostly! At the same time, of course, it was also inevitable some artists would choose different lyric topics and band images than the usual: "against society's normality," and write about religion and Jesus, etc. There are even some Black Metal Christian bands. Black metal in music style but, religious in lyrics.
Ray - Owing to unfortunate hypocrisy that exists in all religions because of less than committed adherents to each, why does some Heavy Metal choose to demean Christianity and its themes, including uplifting the side of evil - Lucifer, Satan, the devil, etc. - more than other religious faiths, which also have characters of good, as well as evil? Why pick Christianity and not Islam or Buddhism or other religions? Is it just a commentary on hypocrisy or does it go deeper than that? Is it simply that Christianity is the main historic influence in the West, and Metal is a Western music form that somehow developed a collision? Rock music, in general, had a rebellious attitude towards traditional values yet, a lot of Metal seems to focus on rejection of Christian values. Would you see that as a correct observation? Why does that focus exist?
Manos - It's due to all these things that you're correctly mentioning. I strongly believe that unlike the 80's, where a conservative Christian organization like PMRC could really do harm to a rock artist, nowadays there is moderate freedom of speech and, in most civilized countries you are free to write and sing almost anything. But, now we're also getting to the fear factor. Who will openly sing against women oppression in some Muslim empowered cultures? Who will condemn certain practices or even dare to make fun of the God of certain religions? We have all seen that in many cases that back-fired and people were murdered simply because they wrote something against a certain religion. Of course, really messed up brains exist in all religions but, I don't understand why any living person of this world would be against preachings that dictate a way of life based on love and not hate, based on sharing things, based on forgiving and sometimes turning the other cheek. It's also quite often that people condemning Christian values bring up parts from the Old Testament. Like I said, nowadays being anti-christian is somehow trendy, because it's safe to do so: meaning that it rarely has any consequences. In general though, mass killings have been committed in the name of all religions but, it would be hypocritical not to say that certain religions preach hate against non believers, while others are more peaceful.
I want to make a special reference to Buddhism, cause it's the religion that I've never seen any special negative reference against and I believe this is because people have somehow connected Buddhism to spirituality, calmness, inner peace, etc. Actually, aside from the people who were born in countries where Buddhism is the dominant religion, I doubt that most people in Europe and America are even aware of the values of that religion. They simply think it's cool.
Kostas - Yes, I believe that they focus on Christianity because they were simply raised with it in their families and societies. So they are familiar with it. Not many of the western young people have read about Buddha or about Islam. I see the "anti-religious" attitude as a part of the general "anti-normality" attitude. I don't see it as a separate "music behavior."
Ray - It is interesting you bring up freedom of speech because, here in America, our Constitutional First Amendment protecting freedom of speech is under attack by factions who believe if anything offends them it should not be allowed.
Do you believe "evil" exists in the Metal community as a literal path to walk in or, is it all hyperbolic; a Halloween-type show? Does evil exist as something to be avoided in the Metal culture/community? What do you believe is the draw for the overt and often grotesque depictions in artwork associated with the genre? Where does the fascination with death come from? Why is shock value important to the genre?
Manos - Evil in the true sense of the word, meaning people willing to harm someone as part of their belief system, is something rare in metal circles. 90% is only marketing, show and shock tactics to impress one another. There is no real substance behind it. The heavy loud sound, distorted guitars, growling vocals, sort of "need" to be accompanied by extreme artwork. I find it totally despicable that certain bands release cover artworks and write lyrics that (in)directly promote the rape culture, the inferiority of women, the glorification of serial killers and in general, violence for the sake of violence. When a young guy reads lyrics that will go like; "Kill'em, destroy'em," etc., etc., they will somehow feel as gaining power through the lyrics while in their everyday life may be shy, introverted people. I was never impressed by such antics.
You get to see Jack Clayton's "The Innocents." Not a single drop of blood and he succeeds in conveying a scary atmosphere merely though his talent as a director, as an artist. You want to be an atheist? OK, fine for me but, just don't base your entire existence on atheism. Really important directors like Woody Allen and the Spanish genius Luis Bunuel never felt the need to turn their atheism to preaching. All their anti-religious references were subtle, thought provoking, and were always pointing against religious hypocrisy rather than the value system itself; which is quite often open to interpretation and each individual's entitlement.
Kostas - Well, I believe that it depends on the person/band. Some might take it just for fun or want to be provocative, and use evil as a lyrical/image concept but, some others might take it seriously and want to express an evil or anti-human or violent attitude. It's not easy to pick who is doing what, unless there are some actions which prove the one or the other.
Ray - Do you believe Metal bands cater to the desires of their audience or does the audience just respond to the viewpoints of the bands?
Manos - An infamous Greek sportscaster (George Georgiou) once said that newspapers are sold-out to their readers. So, in that way, metal bands will try to stick to certain cliches without trying to experiment further to avoid risking to displease their fan base. Sometimes this works, some other times it doesn't. So, both scenarios usually play out to a great extent.
A music band, just like the actor who will meet success playing the Hunchback of Notre Dame, is often typecast. MANOWAR are always expected to sing about Valhalla, warriors, and the brotherhood of Heavy Metal; RUNNING WILD, about pirate tales and so on. An IRON MAIDEN cover artwork that will not feature Eddie (the band mascot) will definitely be faced with severe anger by most fans of the band. Given that, the Metal fans (just like most music fans) often define a band's course, after initially, they themselves, adopted the band's original values and image. People like to follow routines, and habits are tough to break. This is why people are less open to change even if their own lives scream "Change!"
Kostas - It's a difficult question to reply to because, I don't think that someone could have a clear answer. Ideas are transferred in and out from one part to another so, I find it impossible to tell who did the first move. One similar question that sometimes comes to my mind is this: Are t.v. channels feeding the "trashy" needs of the audience or, would they offer us "trashy" stuff no matter what? Who made the needs of the audience "trashy" in the first place? It's like a giant circle moving with both ways. Musicians are also members of society and grasp the viewpoints they have from t.v., books, internet, music, etc. so, they want to talk about them and they do so through their music. Some other musicians might just consider lyrics unimportant; they just want to make extreme music so, they write typical "steel, chains, leather, Satan, violence, anger," etc. lyrics.
Ray - Your business addresses traditional Heavy Metal, looking back decades. What do you both see as the future of Heavy Metal? Where can it go? Where would you like to see it go? Considering where the greatest popularity is for music today, where do you see music, in general, going?
Manos - There are a few modern bands that have stuck to the traditional sound and keep gaining commercial success but, in general, Traditional Heavy Metal, as it was played in the late 70's and early 80's, is becoming more and more unpopular and a thing of the past. In the live shows that I attend where bands from the 80's are playing, I see mostly people in their 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. Younger kids seem to be preferring other styles of Metal and also other styles of music. What was rock in the 60's, punk in the 70's, and "Metal in the 80's in now Hip-Hop. Pop was always dominant but, Hip-Hop artists seem to be filling the rebellious anxieties of a school kid or younger person in general.
The way I see things, in the future the physical format (vinyl, CD. etc.) will be non-existent or obsolete. People will mostly be listening to music online and in general, possessing things will be a practice of the old days. CD sales have completely died, vinyl has gained momentum again but, it will also deflate sooner or later.
As a music collector, I'd love to see vinyl existing in the years to come, even though I understand that it's impractical in some cases. I love to be able to admire the front cover artwork in its full shining glory and place the vinyl on my turntable, listening to music as part of a private ritual, soul healing process. As a music fan, I'm open to experimentation. I listen to all kinds of music but, as I said when it comes to Metal, my wish is to see more bands playing like in the 70's and 80's which where my favorite decades for Heavy Metal music. At the same time, I'm terrible at predicting things, so I'm really curious as to where all this will lead to....
Kostas - I really can't predict the future of heavy metal or music in general because, even in the present, my views on heavy metal or music in general are extremely limited. Out there you may find millions of projects/bands playing their stuff and I will only listen in my limited time as a human being, only to a very small percentage of their productions. I have no expectations of heavy metal. It has worked nice before I was born and I am sure it will exist for many years after I die! So the truth is that it works beyond my own likes and expectations. :) I am very pleased with the way heavy metal worked during my life so far: it allowed me to enjoy listening to it very much. I hope numerous people will enjoy it for many, many years!
Ray - I love and appreciate both you guys, and I thank you both, very much, for your time and energy, and hope we can continue to work together in the future.
Manos - I really appreciate your taking the time to putting together this interview. I'm really happy to be your friend and sharing views with you. Also a huge thanks for the opportunity to openly speak about certain things that we are rarely asked about.
Kostas - Thanks a lot for this interview. I haven't done this before! It was a pleasure and honor for me.
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